CNBC World - Islamic Finance: Applying religion to economics

RedSeaCoral Says:

Aug 15, 2009 - if we didnt have the current banking system and went for a non intrest finance such as islamic finance non of us would probably be in this economic crisis.some of you islamophobes might hate to see the FACT that islam is actully doing something right for you, but please help urselves, bite the bullet and acknowledge the benifit this market has offered thousands if not millions of people around the world.if it wasnt for shairah complient finance alot of people would have no hope.

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 4, 2009 - I don't think, Islamic banks are really following Islam. Had they been following Islam properly, they would not be earning so much!

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 4, 2009 - I'm a muslim, I'm against banking overall. In my opinion, banking cannot be islamic and Islamic Banking is indeed a back door to riba.

josg11 Says:

Sep 24, 2009 - i think there can be islamic banking but most of the examples now are using riba

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 26, 2009 - I don't think that banking can ever be islamic just like prostitution, gambling or drinking can never be. Banking is inherently unislamic. Islam encourages giving loan (interest free), but discourages taking loans. But what all banks do is to encourage people on taking loans because they make profit from it. Islamic banks all depend upon deferred payment, which is also a form of loan. The solution is to introduce gold and silver dinars and get rid of fiat money! (continued...)

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 26, 2009 - (cont...) fiat money has no intrinsic value while a gold coin has! we should abolish interest all together and baitulmaal (house of wealth) should be established at government level, which lends people at no interest for business purposes. Banks should be there to only protect people's money and transfer money. Lending business should not be commercialized!

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 26, 2009 - The current banking system is jewish banking system as interest was invented by them.

josg11 Says:

Sep 26, 2009 - i agree with everything you have just said and you have put it better than I ever could. I agree making money out of money is does not work. Banking profits should be derived from successful investments as opposed to interest. The money we use today is not pegged to anything tangiable its only paper. I have studied economics and also i have friends who study it at top universities they laugh at me when i say can economies and finance be run without interest.

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 26, 2009 - Yes you are right, the people who have studied from such universities work in Islamic banks, so a capitalist mentally has already been built into them during their studies. So they actually try to make Islamic banks work as much like a conventional banks as possible, and to do away with riba, they invent (actually not them, but some Islamic scholars) invent nonsensical schemes and call them ribafree. Israeilites once also did a similar thing, that is playing with letter of law and (cont...)

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 26, 2009 - (cont...) they were still punished. Actually God ordered them not to finish during saturdays, so what they dug canals, so that fish would get into them and then they would easily catch them on Sunday or some day other than saturday. So technically speaking, they didn't fish on saturday, yet God punished them because their intent was wrong. Same is the case with Islamic bankers. They can fool people, but can't fool God!

Mezdazzma Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - hamidmushtaq,I'm sorry but you're quite off the mark here. Nowhere does Islamic banking discourage loans - though be that the case, loans per se do not exist in Islamic banking just as an asset based financial product inherently excludes loaning. May be so with currency based product (which falls within current banking system stipulations).

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - I said that Islam discourages loan (not Islamic banks). Like I said before, Islamic banks are not islamic as all they do is to earn through financial loans! A defered payment sale is indeed a form of a loan!

Mezdazzma Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - Perhaps I should have clarified - by Islamic banking I meant the *system* incorporating the beliefs and value systems of Islam related to finance, NOT Islamic Banks (with a capital B for further cognizance). Note that the former is a theological notion.

Mezdazzma Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - BTW from your comment '....all they do is earn...' am I to understand that profit-making is somehow undesirable? I disagree that deferred payment constitutes loan - it is accrued payment. In my books a loan is specifically that which can incur interest or some form of penalty from non-payment. Risk factors taken into consideration, a bank will always have a necessary interest in timely payment, say for a home loan - but in Islamic banking there is no question of non-payment fee/penalty.

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - Profit making with effort is OK, but profit making without doing any effort is not OK. The fake Murabaha that Islamic Bank do, takes no effort from the bank. The bank makes the customer its agent and gives him money to buy the item. After buying, the customer informs the bank and then the item is transferred to him as a customer. So basically the bank did the same think as a conventional bank, but called it a sale. (cont...)

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - (cont...). The fake Murabaha is actually an invention. The Muslim scholars took seperate concepts of defered payment, Murabaha and agent and combined it into one, to make it appear a valid contract. But the actual intent is wrong here. It may follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of prohibition. Islamic Banks are therefore deception and I will never deal with them.

Mezdazzma Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - ...and I don't suppose you have any sources for this claim you are making? At the very least, cite someone credible who says these aren't halal?At the risk of judging you: It sounds a bit like pedestrian who picks up a book and criticises it for what is now known, undermining the process it took to discover - if you're NOT doing that then this is original research; you should try teaching your ideas and build knowledge rather than be a miffed consumer who refuses to help the community improve.

Mezdazzma Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - No offence w.r.t the last post, it is meant with all sincerity (and a bit of unavoidable sarcasm). When you do have a reliable source, I'll be keen to take a look. :)

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - You can read the book of Maulana Taqi Usmani, "An introduction to islamic finance". He is one of the pioneer of Islamic Banking in Pakistan. Yet even he suggests that murabha should be avoided by islamic banks at all cost and is just a transitional step, it should ultimately be abolished. yet 66 % of profit is earned through Murabaha by the Islamic banks. Taqi usmani even recently declared that 80 % of sukkuks are haraam.

hamidmushtaq Says:

Sep 28, 2009 - Also many Islamic scholars including Zakir naik say that Islamic banking is not islamic. In theory, Islamic banks should be full reserve, but no islamic bank practice full reserve banking. So even if it is part Islamic, its not ok, because even a drop of impurity, spoils a drink. Unless Islamic banks become 100% islamic, they must be called islamic. They should make it clear to their customers, what services are islamic and what not, but they don't, so they are deceiving us!

AEROMANIA86 Says:

Jan 23, 2010 - @hamidmushtaq but at least this is a step in the right direction,, when no country in the world offers a harbor for Islamic banking systems it becomes very difficult to start a 100% Islamic banking sys..... i guess they r doing fine for know and god be with them to completely revert it into pure Islamic banking

sufiatheart Says:

Mar 5, 2010 - Sharia banking theory is 100x better than the absolute and catastrophic JEWISH FRAUD called Fractional Reserve Banking. Jews invented it, modern society runs on it, and its central principal involves LOANING MONEY THAT DOES NOT EXIST IN PHYSICAL FORM AND THEN COLLECTING INTEREST (non-existent money, squared?) ON NON-EXISTENT MONEY.jesus was against usery, but his religion has been zionised.Islamic banking is rooted in reality not uncontrolled greed

PersonOfBook Says:

Mar 29, 2010 - @AEROMANIA86 Well u r yourself saying that Islamic banking is not 100% Islamic. Then why do they never tell their customers that it is not 100% islamic. I'm quite sure if they do tell this, many customers will be turned off and won't deal with such banks. This is deception!

TheKilluminatie Says:

Apr 18, 2010 - @pakxman islam is a religion and a way of life we life the rules becouse of riba (interest)becouse interest brings people to problems

erdos05 Says:

Apr 21, 2010 - @hamidmushtaq , umm, zakir naik is not a scholar. he may possibly be a medical doctor. however, he is not an islamic scholar. perhaps a polemicist using basic arguments which appeal to the masses. however, he is not an islamic scholar. what he says about islam can safely be ignored with no fear of sin. however, what scholars like taqi usmani say can be taken with eyes closed as they come from the classical islamic tradition.